Episode 2_ Deep End

Join hosts Matt Lane and Jamie Fleming as they explore the world of water and wastewater management across Michigan. In this episode, they sit down with participants and mentors from "The Deep End" - an innovative professional development program designed to help newcomers navigate the water industry. Through candid conversations with water operators, engineers, and public works professionals, discover how this unique mentorship initiative is bridging the knowledge gap between seasoned experts and the next generation of water professionals.

From maintaining critical infrastructure and responding to water main breaks, to understanding complex treatment processes and regulatory frameworks, hear firsthand accounts of what it takes to keep Michigan's water systems running. The episode concludes with an interview with Rachel MacNamara, the program's creator, who shares her vision for addressing workforce development in the water sector.

Whether you're a veteran of the industry or curious about a career in water, this episode offers valuable insights into the challenges, opportunities, and human connections that make up Michigan's water workforce.

This episode is part of The Current, the official podcast of the Michigan section of the American Water Works Association.

Transcript

Speaker 1 [00:00:07] Welcome to the Current, the official podcast for the Michigan section of the American Waterworks Association. I'm your East Side host, Matt Lane. 

Speaker 2 [00:00:14] And I'm Jamie Fleming, your host from the West Side. 

Speaker 1 [00:00:17] Join us as we dive into water and wastewater topics from across Michigan. Welcome back to The Current. I'm your East side host, Matt Lane. 

Speaker 2 [00:00:28] And I'm your West Side host, Jamie Fleming. 

Speaker 1 [00:00:30] And today we're actually recording on location downtown Lansing. Yes, a stone's throw from the Michigan State Capitol Building. Jamie told me why we're here. 

Speaker 2 [00:00:44] Good question. So we are here. This is the August session of our Deep and Learning series. The Deep End is a yearlong cohort program for young or new professionals. Get a chance each month to get together and learn about a different topic each month. In August, we're talking about legislation, how regulations are made, government in general. We're going to take a tour of the Capitol because apparently none of us have been there since like fifth grade. So everybody's excited. It's going to be fun. 

Speaker 1 [00:01:19] So we have two guests, Two of our first victims. 

Speaker 2 [00:01:21] Yes. 

Speaker 1 [00:01:21] From Plainfield Township. Do you want to introduce yourselves or we'll start with you?

Speaker 3 [00:01:26] Sure. My name is Justin Delma. I'm with Plainfield. And I do the customer side of things. So I do the meter sets, low pressure, high bills, things of that nature. Okay. And I'm Jonathan Fetcher. I just do mostly out in the field work kind of stuff, installing new services, working with the contractors. And if we got to put live taps in for valves or water main breaks, we were on one last night and just just a lot of construction side of things for the distribution system. 

Speaker 2 [00:02:07] Every time Jonathan talks about what he does, he kind of talks about it as if it's nothing amazing, but it totally is it. 

Speaker 3 [00:02:15] Yeah, I guess it's it is the. The backbone. Yeah, it is. I guess just being in it and doing it, it doesn't seem that big of a deal coming from mainline construction, doing water, sewer storm. Put that in it. Just been doing it for however long I've been doing, I don't know, ten, 12, 14 years, whatever it is. So. 

Speaker 2 [00:02:44] Well, we're happy that you do that work. It's incredibly important. And we all know from those of us that work in the water sector that when the water doesn't work, that's when people notice us the most. 

Speaker 3 [00:02:53] So they notice us. Yesterday we had a girl. What? She came out in her bathroom because she was in the shower and the water went out. Yeah. So she's like, What's going on? We're like, We'll be back in like 20 minutes. So they notice quickly. 

Speaker 1 [00:03:09] So this is the deep end, right? Yes. So what what caused you guys to jump into the deep end? What brought you to this to this program, this cohort that gets referred to? 

Speaker 3 [00:03:21] Ultimately? My boss came up to me first and approached me with this idea as if I was interested and did some more research on it. And it was absolutely something I would, you know, see myself doing. So just to build the relationships and I was new to the water side anyways. I did construction my whole life. So being on the private side and then going to the public sector like there was so much I didn't know. So I just kind of jumped at every opportunity to, you know, further my contacts and things of that nature. So I agree totally. That's why I joined more for networking, getting to know more people in, you know, your line of work, because coming from construction, it was more like you're in a foxhole with your crew. You weren't meeting other construction crews out in the field. But we have conferences and all kinds of get togethers, it seems. And like IWW or what is the other one where a water or a water. And it's nice to. Know who you're working with and knowing that everybody's in it together. 

Speaker 1 [00:04:35] What were what were your initial expectations for the program? What are you. What are you looking to get. 

Speaker 3 [00:04:39] Out of it? At first I didn't know what to expect. I really just had an open mind. But now it's. It's the whole networking thing. It's going to the conferences. It's seen familiar faces and doing the golf outings and, you know, just catching up and seeing how different municipalities do things differently, which is interesting to me. So yeah, I agree with that too. I think I said it last session. It was seeing how my boss knows so many people and him knowing so many people helps. Us out tremendously as much as we help our other communities as well. And. It. It's just nice to know that if you make the right connections, you. You can take care of them and they can take care of you if you're in a pinch. And it's always nice to see familiar faces and not just walking around, you know, aimlessly when you're at. You know, different functions. And, you know, you can go up and talk to people, you know them and catch up. 

Speaker 2 [00:05:52] So one of the cool things about this program is we have mentees who we would say are the students in the classes. But each mentee is paired with a mentor, somebody who's been in the industry for a while. So when you show up somewhere, you have a familiar face. You can learn from them. The topics are meant to cover things that might make it easier for you to kind of hang in a conversation with anybody. In the water sector, it doesn't matter really what their their expertise is that you can join in and start a conversation. And I have seen the the things that you've been talking about how, you know, you can reach out to someone else and and learn from them. And over my 20 years now, that's one of the things I found most valuable about being in the water sector. But it takes a while to build that up. And so this program really was meant to kind of jumpstart that. 

Speaker 1 [00:06:49] So what's the relationship like with your mentors? You have different mentors, same mentor. Talk about that relationship. 

Speaker 3 [00:06:55] All different. The first meeting that we had, we we picked like three mentors that we kind of like clicked with. And then it was assigned based off, you know, availability or whatever. And then we do like, we'll talk every month this phone calls, you know, how are things? You know, nothing like crazy, but it's just nice to stay in contact. So I've been a bad man to talk to my mentor. While I'm sorry, Mike, I got to get a hold here. But, yeah, it's just to get to know someone that's been in the field a lot longer than you have. And. Just it's good to know people that have been doing it way longer than you have, because I know when you get in certain situations or you're talking about, like you said, different topics of water, sewer or whatever it is that I find myself. I don't always have all the answers, but also somebody else. You can go to questions that's not your boss or you know, somebody that you know in that way. Yeah, especially if your boss thinks that you might know the answer or you should know this person. This one? 

Speaker 2 [00:08:19] It's the phone. A friend status. 

Speaker 3 [00:08:20] Yeah. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 [00:08:21] So are there goals that are set up in the program and, like, what are you working towards to achieve? 

Speaker 3 [00:08:28] I think there's a capstone project at the end of all of it. I think it's a matter of whatever that we've covered. Like if you wanted to put something on the water cycle or if you wanted to make. A PowerPoint about. I don't know, like how a distribution systems are or a water plant and go over just. In-Depth to as much as you want to do to share what you have learned and like. I've been thinking about doing a distribution side of things for my project, but I don't know if I want to do that. I might want to do like a waste water thing or water plant thing because. It's something that I don't have a full understanding of more. You know, I, I know more of the distribution. So maybe do a water plant type of project just to get out of my comfort zone. Yeah, I agree the same. I do really enjoy the cycle of water going from installing water main and not really having a understanding of the entire process. And so understanding that now is it's fun and then just getting to explain it to other people, to how, you know, precious it actually is. So in the effects that it has. 

Speaker 1 [00:10:02] As you experience cause you to like reflect on your own experience and then maybe think about your future and your career and what you might want to do as it jumpstarted anything for you guys. 

Speaker 3 [00:10:14] I'd like to do this for the rest of my life. So like the decision side of it. I worked in the sewer when I was a construction company and I don't miss it. I like the clean, clean drinking water. So if anything, if something ever happened, maybe go into a plant. But I really like being out in the field and. Being outside. I don't want to be cooped up all there. So I really enjoyed the customer side and getting to talk to different people every day and just seeing different lifestyles and just interacting with people. It's fun. I really do enjoy it. So. 

Speaker 2 [00:10:54] What's your favorite thing that you've learned so far in the Deep End? 

Speaker 3 [00:10:58] I think it's interesting how wastewater is processed. I didn't realize there was that much that goes into it. Like you think, it goes to this planet and then it comes out clean. But from the movie technology to has to sit in a detention period for so long and then if rainwater comes in and they got to hit it with chlorine because it's trying to overflow and it's a lot it's a lot more than what I thought it was. So it's been interesting to see that and to. Are those plants also the same? I had no idea about waste water. So, like John said, going through the plants and getting the full understanding of how exactly it works is it's been fun. Like it's been fun to learn about that. So. 

Speaker 1 [00:11:58] Any advice for your future vendors? 

Speaker 3 [00:12:05] I'd say just ask questions and get to know the people that you're in the program with and. Lean on your mentor. And I just say ask questions. That's the biggest thing. I ask questions all the time at work, and I think you should always be asking questions that if you don't know it, just ask somebody and you'll eventually you'll get the answer that you're looking for. But also, don't be afraid to ask questions. Yeah. You know, that's the biggest thing because that's obviously how you learn. So coming into this, it was, you know, more of a bashful person, I guess. But the first meeting that we had was a lot of fun in the atmosphere, and it just really put you at ease. So just don't be afraid to just have fun with it. It's a fun program. You get to meet new people. And yeah, I, I enjoy it. I don't I don't think I enjoy it this much. So thank you, guys. Thank you. Thanks. 

Speaker 4 [00:13:13] My name is Teresa Alexander and I work for the City of Flushing, DPW, as the assistant director. 

Speaker 5 [00:13:23] My name is Zachary Elliot. I work for the City of Grand Rapids. Use as a water operator three primarily dealing with skater controls and water treatment and making sure that the water gets to the citizens clean and safe. 

Speaker 1 [00:13:35] What brought you to the Deep End program? 

Speaker 5 [00:13:38] So the deep end for me was and an opportunity to be able to figure out the missing pieces within the water and wastewater cycles that a lot of people don't know about, unfortunately. It's a very big infrastructure for a lot of communities, and a lot of people don't know where that clean water or their wastewater goes to. So being able to figure out those pieces that were missing for myself, being in the water industry was the most important part for this program, for me to be able to figure that out. 

Speaker 4 [00:14:09] For me. I am very new to the world of water. This is I'm approaching my one year mark. So when it was right after I got the job that my boss actually got the email about the deep end. And honestly, at this point I am just here for any knowledge. And especially a year ago when I read the email, it, you know, was that it was tailored towards like new people to the industry. And I was like, Yeah, let's check it out. 

Speaker 1 [00:14:44] Did you go in with any particular expectations? 

Speaker 4 [00:14:47] Honestly, whatever expectations I had, the program has far exceeded them. I expected more like structure, which is not a bad thing, but I feel like what we have now is just very open and it's a lot of conversation and that's how I learn best, is just having the conversations, feeling free to ask any questions that we have and not not feeling stupid. And then nobody makes you feel stupid for asking questions that as a very new person to this world. Like, I feel like all of my questions are dumb because everyone already knows way more than I do. But it's just been. Very refreshing to be with this group of people. And any question you ask it, they just answer it. 

Speaker 5 [00:15:41] So the expectation expectations I had coming into it were very small because it was a brand new program. It had just been started. I wasn't sure what I was going to get from it. I wasn't sure what was going to be created from it. But I think over the time of that, I was able to fill in a lot of those missing pieces that I can't see on the day to day working in my job. So when it came to the expectation sides, I was looking to make those connections to the different parts of the water cycle or wastewater cycle that I hadn't figured out yet and even things outside of that. So you have legal regulations, things that are happening politically. All those things play into water and how it deals with my job and everybody else's job. So those were kind of my expectation was just to fill those missing spots in my career. 

Speaker 2 [00:16:29] So I want to say, you know, listening to you, Teresa, talk about it's nice to be able to ask questions and whatnot. I also want to talk from the mentor side, right? So each of the mentors takes a turn. Most of us are taking a turn facilitating a session. So I did the very first one with Amy Vail. I brought some Aria GIF all from Grand Rapids last month to talk about customer service and billing and metering. We're here this month talking about legislative issues which most people know is like, I like to nerd out on that stuff, so I have absolutely enjoyed the curiosity in the room. It's really intimidating to design an entire session for you all and think, goodness, am I going to bring something that they're going to be interested in? It's it's it's a little nerve wracking. Like, am I going to bore them? Those kinds of things. But really, I've learned to just kind of bring some information and then the conversation flows and it is really, really fun to lead these sessions and to hear your questions. I've learned things from each of these people, each of the mentees in the room. So it's been a great benefit for me to. 

Speaker 1 [00:17:44] So where are your mentors? 

Speaker 4 [00:17:46] My mentor is Jamie. 

Speaker 5 [00:17:50] My mentor is Amy Vail. She works with Egle as the Cadillac district supervisor. 

Speaker 1 [00:17:58] What's the number one thing you would tell someone else if they're coming into this to expect? 

Speaker 5 [00:18:05] So for me, if you want to come into this program, I think the best thing to look at is try to figure out those things that you're not sure about or the things that you want to know more about, even if it's not something you may pursue in your life. I think being having the background information on things you don't know that still may indirectly pertain to your career really can help you excel and look for different avenues and maybe you can find something that you were maybe not so interested in, but would be interested in just by learning about it. I kind of fell into that with legislation I actually really enjoy after talking to Amy. The things that Egle are doing and the regulations that are coming about in the legislation and the enforcement and all those types of different avenues that are in the waterways water industry. 

Speaker 1 [00:18:51] Yeah. Has it caused you to reevaluate your career aspirations moving forward? 

Speaker 5 [00:18:59] So that's a really tough question. I've made a lot of changes. I never thought I was going to be in water. I was initially studying engineering and University of Toledo. I'm originally from Ohio and then I actually transferred into environmental science and I started doing core sampling and like grading four plots of land to figure out contamination. And then they're like, Hey, we have this internship at a water plant. And I was like, okay, sure, why not? You know, just kind of take it and move on with it. I got in there and I realized how in depth water treatment really is and how cool it is to learn about how bad our water is and how we can make it better for everybody to use and drink. So for me, that was like. A really good time. I did that for about 2 or 3 years. I moved between two different plants. Once I got into the industry, I was really trying to figure out, you know, where do I go from here? Because I was operating a plant by myself and I'm operating a much larger facility, second largest in the state, and I'm still kind of at that, Well, where do I go from here? I'm thinking I want to go into legislation. I'm not entirely sure because there's a lot of things that happen there and it takes a long time for any of those things to move. And I just want to change things for the better of society. And that's not always the case Sometimes, unfortunately. It just takes a long time and a lot of moving around of pieces to figure those out. So I think I would continue to look in that direction eventually within the coming years. Yes. 

Speaker 1 [00:20:23] So what about you? I mean, you've got a new career already, right? So so talk about talk about that. 

Speaker 4 [00:20:30] So my background is I was a preschool teacher for ten years. I left that because of some circumstances. And I was a para pro for about a year. And as a para pro, you don't have a job in the summertime. It's not like a teacher. You don't get year round salary. So the first summer I worked for my aunt doing election stuff and then the second summer I went. So last summer I came to Flushing, DPW as the water girl. I was watering flowers downtown three days a week, working like 15 hours a week. But I loved it. Like when I was done with watering for the day, I could go do like other things within my like hours that I was there. But I just loved it. I love being outside all the different things that happen all day long. It can be chaotic, but it's. I know it's kind of thrilling also, like dealing with all these problems. And so at the end of the summer when I was getting ready to go back to the school, the assistant director position opened and I just kind of went for it. I thought, what the heck? They either tell me now and I go back to the job I already have or they tell me yes and I have to figure out how to be an assistant director. So here I am. 

Speaker 1 [00:21:57] How's it been so far? 

Speaker 4 [00:21:58] It's been good. I mean, there's obviously been a poor Jamie is the greatest mentor, first of all. But she. I think that having a female mentor has really helped me because I'm the only female in our entire garage. There's never been a female that's worked there. So there was it was a trying time at first for the guys to, you know, get fully on board with that. I'm one brand new to the industry and to a female, but I think now that I'm a year into it, I have more education under my belt. And I've gone through every season now, which as we know, every season comes with different things because my job is very it's public works heavy. And then we also do distribution. But I, I think that it's, it's going well. I feel good about it and I, I still really, really enjoy getting up and going to work every day. 

Speaker 2 [00:23:04] I love. So we've tried to have some mentor mentee meetings and like. I have something happen and we have to reschedule. And then Teresa's like, we have a parade today or a burial happening, and I'm like, Your world is very different than mine. So, you know, we connect when we can. And I love getting to learn more about what she has going on because it's very different from from what I do day to day. And it's it's a very varied list of things that you have on your plate.  

Speaker 4 [00:23:37] There's still things that I feel like I'm learning a year into it that I'm like, wait, that's our job. Like, we have to do that. All right, cool. Let me figure that out. 

Speaker 1 [00:23:48] What's a particular lesson that you've learned in the program that you think has just like completely changed your view on the sector? 

Speaker 4 [00:23:59] I think as far as like the different municipalities and stuff that we all have issues and we all work through them and it's. Not that you want anyone to have to go through all that issues that we do in a day. But it's also. Just another one of those refreshing things to understand that all of these people that you're with once a month completely understand the things that you're going through on a daily and weekly and monthly. 

Speaker 2 [00:24:27] Basis. 

Speaker 1 [00:24:28] Because you're not alone. Right? I mean, there's. 

Speaker 4 [00:24:30] Right. 

Speaker 1 [00:24:30] I don't know how many hundreds or thousands of cities, villages and townships. What about you? 

Speaker 5 [00:24:36] So just to play off of what you said, like having hundreds of cities and villages, I think the most interesting parts or the things I've taken away so far have been the private side of the water industry, like Kennedy Industries that we went to, who deals with a lot of our rebuilding and manufacturing of pumps. So G.R., for example, is a very large city and we can't do it all ourselves. So a lot of it gets contracted out and we have engineers for that. And I think learning how they play into our infrastructure is really important because without Kennedy Industries or any other consultant, these systems wouldn't continue to run because the city can't have the time to fix everything that goes wrong in those centers or make corrections where we have engineers that can do that on standby. So I think that was the most interesting part, seeing that it is one, a public sector, but is also private in a way, private in the fact that we need the help of the private companies to keep these systems rolling. So I think that's the most interesting thing so far. 

Speaker 1 [00:25:35] To see the public it's not technically a public private partnership. It's a it's an economic transaction. Right. Because you're paying for the services. But the private industry is critical to actually completing capital projects or maintaining some of your larger infrastructure. How does. Does that make you want to get into the private sector? 

Speaker 5 [00:26:08] Another tough question. I've thought about it. The only reason I would go private, because I really do like being like working for my municipalities, because I feel like I'm really, like giving back to the people of those communities because I'm the one that's treating their water and everything they're drinking or consuming is coming from me. The private side interests me a lot because of innovation. They're the ones that pioneer a lot of our innovation to deal with emerging pollutants and contaminants that are unfortunately going to continue to happen as I get older and everybody else does. I think that's where the private side for me is really important because they have the higher budgets to be able to play with new systems to figure out what is the best means to get rid of a new contaminant or a pollution or any ordeal that's happening, emergencies, things like that. So it's hard. I say yes one time and the other times I say no. They're both. They both have benefits and I think they both have cons. I really do like working for municipalities, especially when you get to connect with your community. That's a really important part for me as well. Being able to like tour a plant and show people where their water is coming from so they can understand every time they turn a faucet on or take a shower. This is where that's coming from, and I'm the one that's making sure that you're not going to get sick. 

Speaker 1 [00:27:22] Yeah. It reminds me that most of the people that I've met in the water sector are like public servants, like almost to the core. 

Speaker 2 [00:27:33] It's interesting because our Michigan section membership is. Like vast. And so we we do have, you know, private companies with people that participate. We have engineering firms. We have consultants of all kinds. We have academia. We have our municipal utility people. But when you get in a room, it like all of that kind of fades away and everybody has the same desires and goals in mind. So it doesn't really matter like where you're working day to day. Everybody has a piece. And when you come together, all of those things kind of create that love for water that we we love so much about. The Michigan section. 

Speaker 1 [00:28:12] Yeah. What advice do you have for somebody who wants to do this program? 

Speaker 4 [00:28:19] I would say dive in. 

Speaker 2 [00:28:23] Where's the little phone? Yeah. 

Speaker 1 [00:28:27] I have it on here someplace. 

Speaker 2 [00:28:30] Too. 

Speaker 4 [00:28:35] But I came into this very nervous. Like, I remember driving to the first session, like. As the guys said before, like, what is this even going to look like? Am I going to enjoy this? And I think they did a great job at the first session. And our little like speed dating, our mentors was really cool because we kind of talked about it last session. But even though we're assigned a like mentor, every mentor in this program is fully like at your disposal and they are fine with that. Like you can reach out to any of them if you feel like they would have like more expertise than maybe your mentor. So it's. I just don't. I would just say, don't be scared if you're even a little bit interested in it, just do it. It's such a great program, honestly. 

Speaker 5 [00:29:32] If you're new in the industry, I would recommend this program, really try to get in there and try to think about the things that you don't know within the sector and then go into the program and try to learn more and take away not only from the presentations but from your mentees and your mentors and try to build a really good relationship with your mentor. Because I know with my mentor, Amy, she is taking me on the ins and outs of EGL and how they operate, which has completely changed my view process on Eagle because you know, you typically have a biased viewpoint going into things because you hear it from a chain of people. Talk to those people, understand where they're working and how they're doing it, and let them open your mind to like, you know, this isn't always how it works and how it's done. Like, don't always take what you're told from somebody that isn't an expert in the field as the truth, because it's not normally the truth. I really respect the people that are in their fields and can give accurate information and understanding of what they're talking about. 

Speaker 1 [00:30:33] Yeah. So we have a special guest host. Right? Right. Please introduce yourself and explain why you're hijacking. 

Speaker 2 [00:30:47] Hijacking? Hi, this is Kelly. I'm from Lansing. Kelly Gleason from Lansing. Part of water and Light. I'm one of the mentors. I would say I hijacked Jamie's spot for a moment so I can be involved with the conversation. 

Speaker 1 [00:31:02] Thank you. I'm excited. Now let's introduce ourselves. We have about two other guests. 

Speaker 6 [00:31:08] Yeah, I'm Ryan Bromley. I work for Traverse City Water and Sewer Maintenance. We do all the water distribution maintenance on the system in Traverse City as well as the sewer side of things. 

Speaker 2 [00:31:23] And I'm Dominic, Pennsylvania. And we teach high water and sewage. I'm project operations, but really I like special projects or anything that my director think is fun to do. I'm usually a person and get assigned to the project from replacing lids, sewer lines, sewer laterals, helping US citizens get sub pumps, and the lease area of the citizens is upgrading their water meter reading devices so we can measure their water usage. 

Speaker 1 [00:31:49] yes, That's that's how we know how much they owe us. Right. Well, I'm actually going to start with you, Kelly. Okay. So tell me about your interest in the DBA and why are you a mentor? 

Speaker 2 [00:32:08] Well, I actually was approached by one of the mentors that and she she specifically said, hey, I think you'd be great at this. Would you join this pilot program? And I was very hesitant at first. I didn't think that I had enough knowledge to share. And as I talked to her and another couple people, I was like, all right, I'll jump in. I'll try this and share my knowledge that I have. 

Speaker 1 [00:32:40] What's your experience been so far? 

Speaker 2 [00:32:43] I've I've thought it's a great program. I like all the topics that we've offered to the mentees. It was I think I as Jamie said it was. It was hard to put the program together when I did my session. I was very nervous that I didn't have enough information to share and that it wouldn't be entertaining or educational or boring. But it turned out pretty well. I had some guest speakers come to my session from Ann Arbor and they rocked it. So I feel like the session went pretty well and I kind of think that other mentees kind of feel that nervousness too, because we do want to have a good program. 

Speaker 6 [00:33:30] For future. 

Speaker 2 [00:33:32] Mentees. 

Speaker 1 [00:33:33] How do you how do you build a relationship with your mentee? What's what's your approach to, you know, getting that rapport set up? 

Speaker 2 [00:33:41] Well, that's a good question. You try to contact them each month and talk to them for information. Everybody has busy schedules, and in the water world, things happen. So you could have something scheduled and a main break or you could have something scheduled and, you know, I'm out of compliance. I got to talk to Egle. I have to do this report. I have a fire pump test to do. I'm sorry, I'm not available. So it's just being flexible and allowing to have that open door policy. They can contact you when they want to if they need to. Not necessarily forcing yourself or the program on anybody just being available. 

Speaker 1 [00:34:27] What kind of advice have you been giving your men to? 

Speaker 2 [00:34:34] I'm here if you need me. I'm here. I haven't specifically given him any topics or, you know. I've enjoyed having the open door. If I'm here, if he wants or needs to have I have questions or, you know, a jam session, we can talk things out. 

Speaker 1 [00:34:54] Did you have a mentor when you were coming up? 

Speaker 2 [00:34:58] Actually, no. And that was one of the reasons I was very nervous about being in this program, is I was never offered what is being offered to American students right now, but I didn't have that. I actually kind of felt like I had the opposite. It was like dropped in. You figure it out. So I. I feel lucky that I'm part of the program to be somebody that I didn't. 

Speaker 1 [00:35:23] Have. 

Speaker 2 [00:35:24] When I started in the water world. 

Speaker 1 [00:35:27] What's your experience so far in the mentorship? What's your experience? 

Speaker 6 [00:35:30] I'd say my experience so far has been pretty good. My mentors, Pat, I'm not going to say his last name because I'm going to butcher it. But Pat and I. But I keep things just kind of loose. We have a lot of stuff in common. So that has made it easier, I guess, for us to just kind of we'll get a hold of each other like once a month, keep the schedule kind of loose. He's a busy guy. We're busy. But you can just call him up and chat for a while. Sometimes it's just about what we've been doing over the summer or, you know, like he was on a camping trip and places that I've been and things like that. So I wasn't. I guess I like the fact that it's not always like work related because, you know, sometimes life just becomes like work, work, work, work, work. And it's nice to see like the, you know, there's other human beings out here. We all do other things outside of just our job in the water industry. 

Speaker 2 [00:36:35] And. That's a good question. And so Matt Weldon is my he's my mentor. He's super available. He does check ins even outside of like our standing car. I also got to blame him because I had an issue where I was out for hours. You know, I was Rafi And so we were speaking out, you know, different vendors for water meters to purchase some additional water meters. And so I talked to him about it. He gave me a tremendous amount of questions. And so in the meetings with our vendors and my procurement team, I had all these questions. And so now magically they think I actually know what I'm talking about. However, they don't know. I have this this, this secret person on my show today is kind of guiding me through that whole session. But now it has aided me. I have now been chosen for another recruitment process because I have some good questions. So if you're listening, well, we have another down set to do. But no, he has been such a, well, wealth of knowledge. Any time I'm discussing anything that I'm thinking is like kind of a straight arrow. He's like, but there's another curve. And but I remember 15 years ago. So just having that person, it has had that wealth of knowledge and has been able to also extend his resources and put me in touch with other people surrounding where I met has been super beneficial for me. So I definitely see in real time what this program in a mentee mentorship can do. 

Speaker 1 [00:38:03] Yeah. How did you get involved with the event? 

Speaker 2 [00:38:07] So my my manager actually was like, Hey, you know, you're kind of new, and I know I don't have all the time in the world, so maybe it'd be good if I partner you with someone else to be you. So you chairs all those questions. So I think he kind of put me off. But. But no, honestly, he just he's. He definitely said he see the brightness of my future water. And he figured that for me to decide from a career standpoint where I want to navigate that, that this would present me an opportunity to be able to hear all the different facets that water has to offer. 

Speaker 1 [00:38:43] Okay. How about you? 

Speaker 6 [00:38:47] Yeah, I guess I was approached by my boss with when this program came around and he was kind of like, Well, what do you think? And I was like, Well, you know, I, I like to see new, different things and try to get a feel for other parts of the industry that I don't see. So I think it's worked out really well that way and it's been enjoyable. 

Speaker 1 [00:39:07] What's up? What's something that you learned You learned you didn't necessarily think you would learn? 

Speaker 6 [00:39:15] So probably one of the things that I learned. Would have been like the amount of things that go into like wastewater treatment. When we went to East Lansing and did a tour there in their wastewater treatment facility and they did a presentation on digesters and different things like that. And I've been involved with some sewage treatment and water production on a much smaller scale in my previous line of work. And, you know, I thought, Wow, I know how this works and then just sit down and listen to the way it's done on a much bigger scale and all these different avenues that they use to get it done. And it's like, okay, there's way more to this than I originally thought. 

Speaker 1 [00:40:02] So it's interesting. What you would learn. 

Speaker 2 [00:40:06] So the biggest thing that I learned was dishwater, and so was having a combined sewer. So when we had the flood in 2021, I had just got hired in 2020 and I was part of the basement cleanup program. But what I didn't understand was why are people basement flooding? Like, how did this exactly happen? So understanding the combined sewer, the capacity and a storm water and how it overflowed our system, what the capacity is. I would say for me, that was the biggest takeaway. So now the work that I'm doing now with repricing a sewer, a lot of the sewer laterals, like how that made such a difference of connecting off the main and in with the stormwater if we get so just that whole system has kind of been helpful. So I would say that was has been my biggest takeaway. 

Speaker 1 [00:40:52] So Kelly, mentorship is supposed to be a two way street. So tell me something that you've learned from the deep end. 

Speaker 2 [00:41:02] That's a good question. I. I've learned that we have a really good group of people coming in to take our places. I'm kind of disappointed in myself that I wasn't able to hit all of the sessions because I'm here to learn from the mentees just as much as they're here to learn from me. I'm even though I've been in water for 15 or 16 years, there's still a lot of things that I don't know. And I just think it's a good opportunity for us to share knowledge as this. 

Speaker 1 [00:41:40] Excuse me, has this made you think about your career and like what your trajectory might be? And and has it changed your mind at all on any of that? 

Speaker 6 [00:41:50] I don't know if it's necessarily changed my career trajectory. Other than that. At this point, I think I probably want to stay in this field that I'm in now. I've been doing it for just over three years and I was like, Well, I got out of a different career and I thought, well, I'll give this a try and see how it goes. And so now it's like, you know, this is a career path that I find enjoyable. So if anything, I guess it motivated me more to just be like, all right, I'm going to this embrace this whole thing and keep going. 

Speaker 1 [00:42:30] It sounds like you have some support at work, right? So tell me about your trajectory. 

Speaker 2 [00:42:36] So to be honest with you, I did not really understand water at all. I'm a the flushable wipes, so. Not they're. 

Speaker 3 [00:42:48] Not flushable. 

Speaker 2 [00:42:49] Flushable. They're not flushable. So just recently taking my daughter to college, she wanted these flushable wipes. So it was at that moment that I was able to actually articulate in a very high level way, but in so relatable. So where now she actually understand the flushable wipes and then having her understand that everything that you read can be there. I always look behind the curtain. And so for me, in that moment, I think now working with the public and the floodings, the lack of knowledge that we have here in this world outside of water that people just don't understand. I'm really angry at how on the political side, how we protect the water, how people understand how they can contribute to the water system without being a represented representative in the water industry. So I'm really interested in that communication piece, but that kind of makes it because my major is public relations. So. I think now water has kind of led me into another outlook trajectory where I might want to go, where what I've originally started when I had this program. 

Speaker 1 [00:44:02] Any advice for any advising boards? Boards. 

Speaker 2 [00:44:10] Laney in. Think outside the box. And always remember if you have that question, that you're not the only person to have that question, so ask it. 

Speaker 6 [00:44:23] I guess I would kind of parrot that same thing. Just be open to new new ideas and new information because the things that you see every single day is not the only way to do things. And there's a lot to learn. 

Speaker 1 [00:44:40] That's all my questions. I don't have anything else. That's all my questions. Do you have any questions for these folks? Do you Go ahead. 

Speaker 2 [00:44:48] I don't. I won't make a question for you. What did you learn about the program so far? If you had to summarize it for everyone you spoke to today. 

Speaker 1 [00:44:58] Man. Well, I. 

Speaker 2 [00:45:00] Question. 

Speaker 1 [00:45:00] I learned that the water industry isn't in such water and is in such peril in terms of succession that I think many people think of this recession and in government in general, I think has been government in general, I think has this viewpoint that I really sort of knew this silver spoon army, this wave of retirements that's coming. And there's no one bothered to come to those folks to know or to fill in. And I think it's programs like this that I think it's programs like this can change that and bring folks in and really kind of flip that kind of inevitable, that lack of inevitable backfill, lack of into this, you know, inevitable ingress where people can actually learn and pick it up and and not just do things the way they've always been done, but also not just do things, learn from everybody else and learn how to do things in a different way. And you talked about having so many local governments and so many different local governments, systems and types and everything is so intertwined. But every community has their own unique challenges but never learn from every single one of those. And I think programs like this that not just those programs bring people into the water sector, but also bring people together as humans so that, you know, I can ask you a question. You can ask me a question, and I don't have to know all the answers because guess what? I don't have a hundred people who have a different base of knowledge that I can tap into. And that's that's one of the my big takeaways from this. That's also one of them. I thank you for teaching me stuff. I think that's one of the reasons I love doing podcasts and talk of the reasons I love doing because I get to learn new things every single day. So I get to that's really cool every single day. So yeah. Hello. I realize we may not have met formally. I'm Curtis, technical producer for Am I WW was the current. We could not have told this story fully if we didn't introduce you to Rachel MacNamara, formerly Rachel's ever Genki. She'll explain the name change. Rachel is an engineer who formerly worked with the City of Grand Rapids Water and Sewer Utility engineering department. Now she's with Albert Marsh Consulting. She's also the creator of the Deep in a program born from her own experience of being thrown into the deep end of utility engineering, which has now grown into a comprehensive professional development program, helping newcomers like the ones you've just heard, navigate the water industry. I'll let her tell the story. 

Speaker 7 [00:47:55] Well, thanks for having me. My name's Rachel McNamara. You may have known me as Rachel's eviction ski, but I got married about almost a year ago now in December. I also changed jobs. So you may know me as Rachel's eviction ski from the city of Grand Rapids. But now, I'm Rachel McNamara with Albert Marsh Consulting. So all that changes this year. But when I worked for the city of Grand Rapids, I was in water and sewer, the utility engineering department. I was a project engineer. I got hired on April of 2021. I'd only had one job before working at the city, and that was during Covid. And so I was pretty much fresh out of college, I feel like, and also had no knowledge of water and sewer coming into that job. So not to get ahead of us, but that was sort of a big, you know, key factor. And how the idea for the TVA came up was I was literally thrown into the deep end of not knowing anything about the utility world. So like I said, I was one of three engineers on the city team, plus my boss, the hydraulic engineer, But we were slammed. We were always busy, I think, with a lot of, you know, federal dollars and such, rolling around with new projects going on all of the time. I think that, you know, we just kind of had to jump in and hit the ground running. And there wasn't always the time that I felt I needed to really understand more fundamentally, I guess, what the projects I was working on, what they were, you know, part of the bigger picture. And I always enjoyed, you know, the chances I got to go out in the field with our field crews or our C SATs there, the sewer guys that drove the little remote control video cameras to our sewers. I learned so much from them. And I think I've always been a hands on experiential learner. I like meeting other people to kind of get more detail of how our jobs overlap. And so all that to say, I think I took the idea of I need like a crash course. I needed that like a year ago. I was in my third year at the city when I was like, Gosh, I wish I had some sort of entry level crash course to just sit and watch webinars or go through like a course to really understand at a fundamental level what I was doing. Because engineering school, they teach you all of the math and mechanics behind water and sewer, but they don't always teach you, you know, the operations in the day to day. So it was kind of like see a need fill any sort of thing where it's like, well, if something like that doesn't exist, I think it should. And so I was actually at the Young Professionals conference and that was great. I loved that experience. Being chair or vice chair, we sent over by shares before they become chair to that summit. And I think it's such a great idea because you really do get motivated and excited seeing what other people are doing. And so we had a activity. I was like, you know, at the table at that conference, at that summit, And it was sort of a brainstorming like, what do you feel like the challenges are that you're facing right now? What would make your job better? Because we talk about work for first, you know, obviously being a huge industry issue, filling those jobs, training people for those jobs. And so like, I think that would be so great if we had, you know, some sort of program for people like us that were new to the field that we could learn from each other but also learn from seasoned professionals. That was a huge part of it, was I felt like there was a clear issue of knowledge transfer, a lot of people retiring, and with that all of the institutional knowledge was getting sucked out of the space that we are in. And so I wanted that to be a part of it. But I present the idea just very casually as like a, Hey, I think this is what I would have needed. Does anyone else agree? And my whole table agreed. And so when it came time for the whole summit to kind of do like a share of ideas, my group made me stand up in front of a whole room of my peers and share that idea basically of what was the deep end. And the facilitator was like, Raise your hand if you think you would be interested in something like that. And I saw so many hands go up and it was really, really cool. So that just motivated me. Like once I got back to present the idea to Bonhoeffer and to the rest of the YPG, and I have to give credit to Hilary Karen, because I was working with her throughout my time at the city, just doing like outreach and education in schools with students. And one of the core resources or I guess core frameworks, if you know her, she uses the urban water cycle. And so that connects wastewater, drinking water, stormwater source water into this cycle and how people use water. And I felt like that was a really great framework to use when setting up like a curriculum per se for the course, because I think that it's all connected, obviously, and it's all the same water and there's jobs in each of those different places. And so I just sort of ran with that idea. And then I started pulling the idea of, well, we have one of those stops on the urban water cycle, became, you know, a monthly session, be great to have then like a hands on experience to to go with that and so you know that it looked like plant tours going to see where pumps are built. One of the things I wanted to pull in to outside of like the technical aspect of things was the business side of water, the governmental side of water. I think that Ada BWR does a great job of setting up committees and councils for that sort of thing, but people who are my age don't really know what that space looks like. And so I felt like that was important to include to just sort of like basic executive functioning skills of how to be a professional, but then softer skills or more business side of things besides like the engineering operations. I think it's really important when you're learning new things to bounce that information not only off of the peers that are learning the same pace as you are, but also to the professionals who have lived it and have been in the industry for a while. And so I kind of wanted both of those interactions to happen. And I also thought, okay, well, if we're interacting with these mentors and they need to kind of know what we're learning, it just makes sense for them to also be involved in the teaching aspect of it, because that was one of the challenges we faced was, okay, we have all these great ideas for sessions, for learning sessions and topics, but like who is going to actually teach them? Like we're not going to probably be able to pay people to do it. And so that was sort of the goal, was to find mentors or, you know, professionals in each of those topic areas or that felt comfortable speaking out to those topics to evolve them that way, too. And it just sort of feels a little bit more like a cohort then of, you know, young professionals or new professionals, but also the seasoned professionals too. And one thing I think that that Jamie and other staff, other volunteers with this program brought up is that it wasn't just making a space for young professionals to learn from seasoned professionals, but it was also a place for seasoned professionals to learn how to teach to the people that they're training up. And I think that that was never something that crossed my mind until someone brought that up. I was like, That's very true. Like there's a very equal need for practice and how to train people. I mean, you kind of go from this period of you're at the bottom of the learning curve and then you're at the top of the learning curve. And once you're at the top, you sometimes forget what it's like to be at the bottom. So I think that was a good refresher, hopefully for the mentors in the program. There's always room for improvement, right? And I hope that if this program continues on into the next year, that it's obviously better than it was this year. Some things that come to mind, I guess, you know, is just more advertisement. I think from a personal standpoint, I was trying to plan this program and be ready for June or start January of 2024. And I was also getting married in December of 2023. So at some point I had to step away in the fall because it just I had to respect my own healthy boundaries with, you know, planning wedding, also doing my day job. So I think that there's still so much that we can improve. But like I said, one of the things that comes to mind, I think, is I mentioned, you know, mentors learning how to teach the younger generation. I think that that can always be fine tuned and it's uncomfortable to get up and talk about things. For even more than like a half hour. For some people, especially, maybe I'm generalizing it, but it can be difficult for engineers or for people that don't, you know, have that interface all the time. We did do a mentorship bootcamp and I think that that's something that should be done again. But I would encourage, you know, feedback from the students that were part of the cohort to say, What didn't you like? What did you like about the sessions and how can that information be given differently or improve in terms of like the experiential learning? I think it was great. We got to see a lot of cool facilities. We got to talk to a lot of great people. I was excited that we got to do a tour of the Capitol and connect with our lobbyist and that was awesome. So I hope that that would happen again. But yeah, just continuing to push this out as a resource to managers who find themselves in a position and where they want to give the time and energy to the young people around them. But it just isn't always realistically feasible. So just encouraging more people to be a part of it. I don't know if you guys remember it, but we had a really great speaker. I want to say it was up in Traverse City in 2021. So it was the first comp? No, sorry, 2022. It was the first full conference that I went to, but he was the first session of the day. He was so energetic and it was awesome. But I still have his packet of like ten Ways to Prevent Overwhelm because I think that that is such a very. Overlooked skill to develop, and I'm trying to develop it all the time of, okay, how do I stay organized? How do I, you know? Not freak out. Anytime I feel like I'm, you know, have imposter syndrome or I'm doing something I'm not comfortable with. And I think all of that also just plays into work life balance of having a good executive functioning system for yourself. So that way the stress doesn't bleed into your life. I think that that's a huge one, that it's not always easy to teach because everybody's different needs to be talked about more and more. Now that I'm an avid marsh, fortunately I'm not in water sewer anymore, so I won't be able to be in the space necessarily to see this program grow. But I know of it well and I'm excited to see that. So even though I won't be a part of WWE anymore, I love all of you guys and it is a pleasure to be able to make this idea a reality. And I'm thankful for all the people that helped with it because it takes it took a whole village for sure, and it's going to continue to need a lot of support. I think that that's going to be really important for the program to be sustainable is, you know, not just one person, but a group of people to carry the load of proving it and and seeing it move forward. So thank you for having me. 

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